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A Ph.D. student at Revel should know better
Date 12:06, 06-15, 11

"Jewish thought teaches one to be embarrassed of one's failings, to hide one's flaws from man and God, to repress one's base characteristics and desires."

This is patently false. Jewish thought teaches us to announce our failings (Rambam Hilkhot Teshuva 2nd Perek, IIRC), to express our flaws (or, our "bad midot") to God and man (the Rambam teaches, in the same book, that we must do vidui and ask mehila for negative midot) and to divert (not repress) base characteristics and desires to more productive endeavors (Shabbat 156a).

Moreover, even if this were an accurate representation of Jewish Thought, none of this is relevant to the case of "Dovid". There is no evidence from the video that Dovid failed, was flawed, or did not "repress" his desires. Homosexuality is not a failure, and arguably not a flaw - unless having a yetzer hara is a flaw as well.

Jewish Thought, however, does famously teach us not to judge anyone until we reach "their place".

-Daniel Rogoff

Really?!
Date 02:06, 06-15, 11

Resnick, you are more of an embarrassment than Dovid. Your logic is tortured, your heart full of hate, and I'm never making another contribution to YU because clearly they will take anyone with a pulse into their PhD programs.

By the way, asceticism is frown upon in Judaism and there are singles weekends and shadchanim for unmarried heterosexuals, you idiot. Other than brainless screeds like yours and the pseudo-science of misguided fools like those at NARTH and JONAH, what has anyone in the Orthodox community done for homosexuals?

Not sure I agree
Date 06:06, 06-16, 11

"Why can't they struggle silently and heroically as do so many others?"

While I second your sentiment about publicizing one's non-public feelings/emotions/thoughts, I can't agree with the above statement. This isn't modern day psychology here. Bottling up emotion isn't good, especially in children. A quiet struggle with family, peers and communal leaders, yes' but it's not good for young people to struggle alone.

Everyone should keep quiet
Date 11:06, 06-16, 11

"Do Catholic priests, the overwhelming majority of whom remain celibate their entire lives, complain? No."

-But their victims of sexual abuse do complain. The last 50 years have not been great for priest celibacy.

"They wage their internal battles quietly, recognizing that not every topic need be discussed openly and not every feeling need be publicized and validated. Why, then, can't Orthodox homosexuals do the same? Why can't they struggle silently and heroically as do so many others?"

-Why all the complaining about "the shidduch crisis"? Either you have emunah that you will find your spouse or if r"l you don't, you can reach the highest levels of spirituality. Just don't complain out loud and hold all of these conferences and take important rabbonim away from their learning and teaching. Go for the spiritual heights on your own! Same goes for Agunot. - you may be halachically anchored but your neshama can soar.

Another Frum Gay Jew
Date 05:06, 06-17, 11

Hi, I'm an openly Orthodox gay Jew and I take some issue with your article. First and foremost, I think that until one first-handedly with the struggles of homosexuality, can they comment on "their lifestyle". It is not comparable to the heterosexual attempting to be celibate, because while that may be physically just as difficult- emotionally it's a whole different ballgame- with rejection from the family and the community, and keeping a secret that they can never discuss, feeling like they never fit in because all their friends are talking about marriage and women and who they are and are not attracted to- and the homosexual either has to say quiet, or worse, lie, for their entire lies. You say the single heterosexual suffers heroically in silence. Have you heard of the Shidduch crisis? That is not "suffering in silence". That is making a public issue out of the fact that many young men and women today are unmarried and therefore forced to be alone.
I finally would like to mention that just because "Dovid" is and openly gay man, doesn't mean he's not the same person he was when he was a camper. Are you the same person you were as a child? No. Everyone grows up, and develops the way they feel best and try to live a frum lifestyle. I commend Dovid, and am saddened that you fail to recognize his struggles as "unheroic". He is, indeed, very heroic.

The Threat to Orthodox Homosexuals
Date 07:06, 06-17, 11

Elliot Resnick's Op-Ed "Orthodox Homosexuals and the Pursuit of Self-Indulgence" has many flaws, but I will choose to address just one.

Orthodox Jewish homosexuals are overwhelmingly denied the right to live their lives peacefully and quietly within the Orthodox community. In addition to incessant questioning and prodding to "go on a date" or "find a nice Jewish girl," organizations like JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality) are targeting them for electroshock 'therapy' and others harmful pseudo-psychological practices.

Until the Orthodox community uniformly rejects the goals/methods of JONAH to alter the sexuality of these individuals, it is imperative for Gay and Straight Orthodox Jews to stand up for equal acceptance in the community.

Some gay Jews may choose a celibate lifestyle, others may choose to have a same-sex partner and find their Daled Amot in the Orthodox community. Others may leave Orthodoxy altogether. But it's an unfair characteristic to consider this a "Pursuit of Self-Indulgence" when the alternative is harmful 'therapies' forced upon them by community leaders.

-Aaron Steinberg
New York, NY

The video was about being bullied, abused and mistreated, not complaining about being celibate!
Date 06:06, 06-18, 11

The "It Gets Better for Orthodox gay Jews" video wasn't about anyone complaining how hard it is to be celibate or 'be homosexual'. Desires were never even mentioned in the youtube clip. Watch it for yourself. The video was all about being bullied, abused and mistreated. There is no Jewish value to stay quiet when one is being hurt by others. The idea that victims must stay silent is anathema to Torah Values. The author is really displaying a very clear lack of intelligence and sensitivity.

chillul hashem
Date 07:06, 06-18, 11

So they should just go back in the closet? Do you remember the reason why the "It gets better" project was started? It was a response to a rash of suicides by gay teens, trying to follow the "advice" you just gave, to shut up and keep their problems to themselves. I think the need to tell their story and to find a measure of acceptance is more important than your inability to handle the truth they have to teach us. Pikuach nefesh overrides your discomfort with their God-given identities, or with what you so self-righteously call their "failings" (how, exactly, have they failed? By being born gay?).

The most perfidious point in your article, however, is the idea that there is some parallel between a straight person's "struggling" with their attraction to the opposite sex. We live in a culture and a world that affirms that attraction, that legitimates it religiously and legally, that gives it an expression and an outlet. To make your analogy make any sense, you'd have to compare the struggle of Orthodox gay Jews to the struggles of a straight person who--for some reason--is told she will never be allowed sexual fulfillment and companionship. I find this lack of equivalency indicative of your inability to truly empathize with the struggles of gays and lesbians, and symptomatic of a culture that would rather pretend they didn't exist than grapple with the moral and theological questions that their existence raises.

Why does God make people with human desires for love and affection, and then seemingly close them off to any possibility of living out these values? Rather than blame gays and lesbians and tell them to go away, maybe Judaism ought to do some soul searching, and some Torah study.

An orthodox Jew living in the gay world
Date 07:06, 06-18, 11

Have you ever been attracted to another man? if someone told you when you were dating that you couldn't talk about a women's looks or how you feel about them, how would you feel?

I understand where your coming from, being born and raised in kew gardens hills as still a frum jew.

What im trying to understand is when you have tons of kids struggling in High School and college trying to deal with life and not knowing who to turn to. They look at the internet and magazines or newspapers. They have no interest in talking to a rabbi or a parent because of something that YOU just wrote. (nobody wants to get turned down)

I had no one to talk to in High School, imagine if there was a group for me. im not saying that having sex with another man is ok, because I dont believe it is. To deny someones feelings and let them deal with it alone.....

that can come to suicide. do you really want that on your hands. i wasn't one of those kids, thank g-d for loving parents, but not all parents are. I think that you should understand the issue more before making a statement like the one you wrote your just proving the gay community right.

Ridiculous
Date 08:06, 06-18, 11

This article, this "shut up and suffer" approach is a massive chilul Hashem and a complete desecration of ahavas Yisroel. The author seems more willing to watch his fellow Jews die than hear something that makes him uncomfortable. Because silence, in this case, too often does kill. May the love of Hashem and the courage of young men like Dovid triumph. May the author's hate and ignorance be erased from amongst all of Israel.

Who's asking for your acceptance.
Date 12:06, 06-19, 11

Elliot:

In your op-ed piece you asked why gay people must publicize their orientation. That doesn't sound like the real question here. It seems more like you were asking why you had to hear/read about it.

In this case, you went looking for it. You went looking for a video, you found it, and then ask you why it was there in the first place? I'm confused.

Orthodox Jews who "declare" a same-sex attraction, are not doing it to get your approval. Even if someone close to you was to come out to you, it might not be to get your approval. Maybe they thought they could find a compassionate ear. If you're not an appropriate sounding board for such issues, it would behoove you to say so. And you have said so.

Orthodox Jews who are attracted to members of their same sex, are not generally looking for your approval (nor the approval of anyone else). What they MIGHT be asking is to not be judged for not being like you in one area of their lives. Regardless, it's not your place to judge them.

If they express who they are (to you, or to the world at large), they know they're taking a chance that you may not like it. Most of those who disclose a gay orientation know the risks that come with that disclosure.

I agree it's not tzniusdik for one to speak of their sexual orientation no matter what it is. However, there are times and circumstances in which a tzniusdik disclosure might be appropriate. This may be well beyond your life experience, but imagine someone who has no interest in being married to someone of the opposite sex. Imagine that person has friends, family, and shadchanim CONSTANTLY pushing prospective marriage partners in their faces. They don't want it, they didn't ask for it, and they know they can't say so without being shunned, or at least questioned and looked down upon.

Some people don't want to make the HUGE mistake of marrying someone, having kids, and then possibly risk losing the marriage, and ruining their own life, the partner's life, and those of the kids. There are circumstances in which "coming out" is appropriate and warranted.

I know dozens of people who TRIED to ward off meddling parents (who have genuine but misdirected concern for their children), rabbis, teachers, friends, and shadchanim. Some were unsuccessful, and the meddling, and many cases insistence-bordering-on-force had horrible results.

Op-Eds like yours make it clear that people who are keeping their orientation to themselves, but simply don't wish to marry should continue to accept what amounts to bothers-bordering-on-harassment because there is one area of their life in which they aren't like most others in the mainstream frum world.

It's understood that you don't want to hear it. A person coming out to a potentially hostile audience had best choose their words carefully.

From your note in The Jewish Press, it doesn't seem like you've had any face-to-face experience with a frum gay person (or at least one you KNEW to be gay).

If you don't wish to be there for your gay friend, that's your decision. However, many people who speak as you do have made up their minds before hearing much of anything.

If you're not conversant in the issues, you may want to ask your rabbi about what's to come. There's no issur against an attraction. The issur comes with specific acts. Until you know what goes on in "Dovid"s or anyone's bedroom, you must be dan l'chaf z'chus. Your religion tells you that.

No one's asking you to accept anyone else's sex life. If a friend or a member of your community asks you not to judge him or her, consider thinking of them as a Jew, and not as someone to looked down upon based on your preconception of what they might be doing that's against halacha.

Maybe some day, you'll meet an Orthodox, openly gay person face-to-face. When that happens, it will be your duty as a Jew to assume they are living in accordance with halacha unless they tell you otherwise. It will also be your duty to show kavod ha'briyos and ahavas Yisroel. Gay people aren't the only ones asking that of you. God asked it of you long before any gay person did.

Who and what are you talking about?
Date 07:06, 06-19, 11

First, you are misrepresenting the video you saw. I appreciate your shock at seeing your student in the video. However, those brave men were publicizing their orientation in order to speak out against bullying and abuse of young gays from Orthodox backgrounds. This includes those struggling to remain celibate. They were not for a moment complaining about their plight as gay men in an Orthodox world. In no way were they advocating homosexual activities.

The whole "It Gets Better" program was designed to help avert suicide among teen homosexuals. Your student and his colleagues were speaking to others who have virtually no public role models, saying, "Hang in there. As dark as it may seem now, it gets better."

I'm not an advocate of homosexuals generally advertising their orientation in frum circles, on the other hand, if all of them remain invisible, those struggling with their homosexuality in the frum world remain totally isolated.

Second, who exactly comprises this category of people "silently struggling with their attraction to the opposite sex"? If it is those without shiduchim, there's a whole industry set up to serve them, along with the supportive ear of every rabbi and anyone else providing pastoral support. What teens are bullied and abused because of their heterosexual yearnings?

-Tom

People in glass houses should keep those stones in their pockets.
Date 09:06, 06-19, 11

Resnick has unwittingly opened a dialogue about how much fear and hate festers when people are not allowed to accept or make peace with their authentic selves. So much self-righteous anger over someone else's inability to live with shame and "embarassment" over what "should" be kept a secret, oh, Elliot, why so much resentment... I can't help but wonder what secret has put you under such a great strain that you can't stand to see others living honestly... And why you were perusing "It Gets Better" videos...
Esther Cohen

To be or not to be...
Date 04:06, 06-19, 11

That IS the question. That sweet boy tried to take his own life because of attitudes such as those expressed in this piece. One should hope that "Dovid" never returns to the boy you knew.

Indeed, this sweet man has publicly discussed his experiences TO combat gay teen suicide as part of the It Gets Better campaign. You ask why he publicize his orientation for the whole world to know. He has opened himself up to criticism, such as yours, TO save lives. That is not self-indulgent. It is selfless. It is an act of love. It is a mitzvah.

It should not need to be mentioned that embarrassing others and oppression are not. Attitudes such as those expressed kill. Silence and isolation kill. The sweet, courageous hero "Dovid" has taken arms against a sea of troubles -- gay teens are 5 times more likely to attempt suicide, and the rates only increase for those from oppressive backgrounds. "Dovid's" participation in the campaign was noble, and he is to be lauded. There was no mention of sex, or even dating -- no indulgences of any kind. The problem is not struggling with sexual attraction, but rather harassment, discrimination, violence, contempt, condemnation and ridicule and consequent fears of disappointing themselves, their friends, their families and G-d; hetereosexuals do not face the same slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. While I do believe there is much to be complained about in this respect, there was not one complaint. Only a selfless act. Yours is a gross and ironic mischaracterization. All he said is "It gets better".

Let us hope, despite such attitudes and knee-jerk interpretations of gay as self-indulgent, wrong, paining those who care about us, unvirtuous, derelict, profane and to be condemned, that it does get better, and that teens stop taking their lives.

Corey Yoquelet, MA

Interesting Article
Date 05:06, 06-19, 11

This article really shows the problems with parts of Orthodox Judaism today. I will no longer be reading the Jewish Press, if it really will publish vitriol such as this.

A Chillul Hashem is just the beginning...
Date 09:06, 06-19, 11

I sincerely hope that the person who approves comments was off today because some sort of counterpoint is sorely needed. The video that inspired this article was posted as a response to an epidemic of LGBT teen suicides. These teen suicides are often motivated by attitudes like those espoused here- this piece presents a future that is hopeless and bleak and offers nothing but anger and consternation to young people who are suffering and in desperate in need of a little unconditional love and support. "Dovid" spoke of his own pain to let children in grave danger of making a fatal mistake know that they are not alone. It saddens me to read Resnick's grotesquely insensitive response. To see it posted in a respected Jewish publication is shocking- publishing this is downright irresponsible. I pray that you are not deliberately censoring comments and endangering more young lives with black and white, fundamentalist thinking that deliberately ignores Ahavas Yisroel and everything that is beautiful about Judaism. To suggest that suffering in silence and isolation until you can no longer stand to live is the only way to be a good Jew is, quite frankly, disgusting. Please allow other, more loving voices to come forward. The consequences of letting this article stand alone are too dark to contemplate.

Rochel Katz

wow
Date 08:06, 06-20, 11

This article is, simply put, one of the most atrocious, offensive, and primitive op-eds I have ever read in the Jewish Press. What an imbecilic viewpoint this fundamentalist author espouses.

Chaim Levin (Aka sweet Dovid)
Date 11:06, 06-20, 11

I'd simply like to state a few simple facts that are true for me while growing up as gay Orthodox Jew.

1)The sweet frum boy the author refers to in this article is me, Chaim Levin.

2)Elliot Resnick, the author, knew me quite well as he was my waiter in camp Gan Yisroel in Parksville, New York in 1999. I was 10 years old at the time. Yet he did not contact me to let me know that he would be writing this harsh article that featured my story.

3)When I say the words I say every day to almost everyone I meet -- "I am gay" -- my intent is not to shove anything down anyone's throat. I know that when I tell people I grew up in the trenches of Crown Heights within the four walls of the Chabad community, I am bringing to light a reality most people are unfamilar with -- an openly gay 22-year-old former Lubavitcher. The point I'm making is that we exist in your communities, we come from the same place you do, and we are re no different from you either.

4)I believe that by coming out publicly I am sending a message to all those out there who are still so ashamed about the fact that they're gay -- the ones who are still hiding alone in isolation. I'm telling them they're perfect the way they are. No one should suffer in silence because of something they didn't choose, especially for being gay, because there's no shame in loving someone, male or female. And when these people receive positive encouragment from people who have been in the painful place that they are in now, it can emmpower them and give them hope for a better future. When I was 17 and in the closet there weren't any videos like there are today. I was so conflicted and so isolated, and most of all I was ashamed.

5)Had the author spoken to me before he wrote this article I believe that he would've reconsidering writing it because of the fact that I spent 2 years in "therapy" trying to change my sexual orientation. Not only didn't it work, but group that administered the therapy harmed me -- physically, emotionally and financially.

6) I never chose to be gay; no one does. Who in his or her right mind would "choose" the risk of loosing family, community, and friends. That's what happened to me, and believe me when I say there's no way I would've ever chosen to live through those horrible experiences of rejection from everyone in the Orthodox community who supposedly cared about me.

7)My last point, which should be obvious to most, is that when I tell someone I am gay, I am NOT telling about what I do privately behind closed doors. The same way one doesn't ask his friends or parents if they keep the laws of family purity, it's no one's place to decide or judge me based on the Torah for simply being gay. It's more of an excuse to be homophobic rather than understanding what it's really like for someone who is in the conflicted position of where I once was, suffering in silence, all alone.

Overwhelmingly one-sided responses...
Date 10:06, 06-21, 11

It is clear that this article struck a nerve.
Unfortunately, most of the responses have themselves been hateful and abusive, while the tone of the article seems to TRY and take a more balanced, (if wrong), approach.
Instead of being spiteful, maybe the responses should focus on politely explaining where the author may have been mistaken.
Additionally, according to halachic Judaism, the author is correct vis-a-vis expressing feelings regarding the other gender. Men are not supposed to talk about their urges/feelings, and are not supposed to even look at girls 'for pleasure'. We are not supposed to openly announce and flaunt our base urges, we are supposed to deal with our urges privately, or consult a rabbi- there are no precedents from tanaaim declaring their homosexual urges and the need for the community to know...
While this 'sin' is obviously infinitely more difficult than nearly all others, lets be clear- acting on homosexual urges IS an "abomination" according to the Torah.

The Torah is our guide for right and wrong, not our "feelings".
Date 11:06, 06-21, 11

Eating pork may "feel" the same as eating beef, as they are both meat from an animal. However, for a Jew, the Torah tells us that there is a huge distinction. A human being may "feel" that heterosexual love and homosexual love are the same, but the Torah tells us explicitly theyr'e not. A Jew who is committed to the Torah cannot take pride in forbidden desires, nor can he consider a clear biblical prohibition as an identity of who he is. Someone may have a desire to drive on Shabbat or eat shrimp, but as a committed Jew he should never take "pride" in that forbidden desire, nor consider it part of his "identity".

Inspired
Date 09:06, 06-21, 11

The comments posted in response to this primitive op-ed make me proud to be a Frum Jew.

kol hakavod
Date 07:06, 06-22, 11

Kol hakavod to the Jewish Press for never compromising on Jewish values and principles and for not falling under the pressure from the overwhelming political correctness trend that unfortunately has seeped into the frum world.
Keep up the great work.
Rabbi and Mrs. Klass would be proud!

so sad
Date 09:06, 06-22, 11

Chaim(sadly you publicized who you are):
You agree with the author's point- you are right! Your parents did not tell you what happened behind their door. They didn't publicize their feelings for one another to anyone besides themselves. They didn't introduce themselves and then proceed to tell you about their urges,desires, or feelings, or which category of feelings they have... In yiddishkeit we are modest about this area of life EVEN when it comes to people who do not have the same struggle as you. If they(parents in general --don't know yours) had an issue or an obstacle in their relationship, feelings for one another, etc, they probably dealt with it privately with a rav, mashpia, or friend they could trust.
You seem to be a caring individual- therefore I'm sure you will want to know that you are being extremely insensitive and inconsiderate when you express your state of desires and feelings to "everyone you meet". You are expressing and telling something of yourself that is private and should make any person feel uncomfortable (the same way one would feel uncomfortable if a man started expressing his urges he was feeling for the other gender). Its none of anyone's business! Unfortunately you didn't get help from the right people and therefore you have chosen to deal with your challenge in the wrong way- the sad part is you have no shame that you have no shame. In Judaism we don't have public confessions about our faults or challenges(unlike what one of the above commentators may think). It is a shame that you and people with your way of thought force people you meet to be exposed to your private life.

Hatzlacha in the challenge Hashem gave you and may you start dealing with it the right way.

great article
Date 10:06, 06-22, 11

Very well written article.
3 charachteristics given to the jewish nation were: 1)modesty "baishanim"-shyness 2)merciful "rachmanim" 3)doers of kindness "gomlei chassadim"

"Baishanim"- its our very nature. This article it seems, was trying to arouse that natural sensitive modesty that truly exists within every jew-no matter the challenge. "Expressing your feelings" about private matters to the world is extremely immodest.

Hopefully the Jews whose help you seek with this challenge in private will show their nature of mercy and kindness.

is everyone on the same page?
Date 07:06, 06-28, 11

we are talking about 'orthodox' homosexuals ... that , to me, is the equivalent of talking about 'orthodox' kleptomaniacs, or adulterers, or even murderers ... as orthodox ... we need to be able to discern between the 'desire' to do an aviera (which most of us definitely have) and the 'practice' of actually carrying out that activity ...

there are many desires in human nature ... years ago, speaking among women friends when we were all young mothers, i remember that more than one of us could have easily caved in and done some 'bodily harm' to our young infants when they wouldn't stop crying ... the self-restraint was extremely difficult ... but we all got through it .... and painlessly, at that ...

how many times, as a youngster, did i have to restrain from easily taking something in a store when no one was looking ... or knowing there was money - sometimes actually seeing money - lying around my house and i had to carefully put it in my mother's room and tell her i found it elsewhere ... how much restraint ... but it's possible ...

there are different levels of restraint expected of us by halacha ... it is easy to just buy kosher if you only go into a kosher restaurant ... or a kosher supermarket ... or restrict ourselves to a specific hechkshur when shopping anywhere ... how easy would this be if we were hungry and were being offered non-kosher food without alternatives?

restraint and going against our own desires is what halacha is all about ... homosexuality is really no different than kleptomania ... or physical assault ... or even murder ... these are desires that many of us have had over the course of being human ... these are the very desires we are expected, by our Creator who knows us best ... to prevent and restrain ...

after all, this is called halacha ... and we are talking about our holy Torah ... no matter what the desire ... kleptomania or homosexuality ... restraint is possible ... and actually expected ...

if we are truly orthodox ... we need to understand that desire is human nature ... but restraint is halacha ... as observant Jews, we need to all be on that same page ...

rhona corinne friedland
north miami beach, florida